Like everyone on Indian Twitter, I first heard of Mr. Rahul Roushan after several months of enjoying Faking News, the first English-language satire publication in India. He wrote pseudonymously at first, as Pagal Patrakar (crazy journalist), and when I saw a TEDx talk by him talking about accountability in news media beyond TV ratings, I was impressed.
He had been a TV journalist himself, and went on to get an MBA at IIM Ahmedabad (an institution that chose not to interview me because my CAT scores were too low, joke’s on them, I didn’t even try), before going on to create Faking News. In India, that’s a pretty unique combination of skills, that a creative was also business-savvy.
FN had a pretty impressive exit, and then Mr. Roushan went on to found OpIndia, a news website that started off publishing critique of mainstream news, and now has gone on to be profitable, funded mainly by reader donations. Similar news websites have much larger donation drives, still bleed money, and still pay their contributors precious little when they deign to, so what Mr. Roushan has pulled off is an impressive entrepreneurial feat.
And now, Mr. Roushan has gone on to write a memoir about the evolution of his political thought, titled Sanghi Who Never Went To A Shakha. If you’re Indian, the title is obvious to you. If you’re not, it refers to how the supporters of the BJP are referred to as “Sanghi” in online arguments. Sanghi however means someone who is a member of the RSS (India’s largest volunteer organization, many members of who go on to be part of the BJP), whose meetings are called “Shakhas”. The title here refers to how Mr. Roushan, like millions of others, gets called a Sanghi in online arguments, though he has never been part of the RSS or even sees eye-to-eye with them. The title is very relatable to anyone who has argued online and been name-called and associated with an organization you’ve never even thought about… which currently is half the voting-age population of India.
The book embodies “The Personal Is Political”, with the author looking back on every aspect of his life from the lens of his current political views. While it can be called a political book, it is representative of a journey most millennials in India have gone through - getting online, meeting others from all over the country, comparing notes, realizing so many things from the orthodoxy of thought don’t make any sense, and evolving several new lines of thinking.
When I read this book, what immediately stuck out to me was the glimpses of early Indian internet culture. I’ve barely seen discourse on how social media in its nascent stages evolved in India, when such a conversation is so important for the future of the Internet. Back in the day, we essentially took over Orkut (Google’s first attempt at social media, which preceded Myspace), networked with each other to kindle a collective interest in our history (which has now led to history being one of the most successful genres of books in India), and originated a whole new political movement. There’s been PhD theses on WoW and Second Life; I hope someone decides to conduct a study on this phenomenon and its far-reaching effects.
So I knew I had to talk to Mr. Roushan about this, especially since none of his other interviews about the book even touch on that very much.
While that was the trigger, I was curious about the perspectives Mr. Roushan had, on being an entrepreneur while being from a middle-class academic family, being in the online creative space, on running profitable ventures, on writing so much in English as a second language, and so many more topics.
Read on to hear his takes on being doxxed, Hindi imposition, writing a book, FOMO, and so much more!
I loved reading your book so much. Especially the chapter about the Early Internet Hindus. It brought back a lot of nostalgia. I don't find too many people talking about those times, really! 2000s internet was a totally different beast.
True
Wasn't Orkut a total work of art?
It was!
They had a "personal" profile, where you could list your "turn ons, turn offs, best features"
And you could get testimonials!
I'm a little glad and a little disappointed those things don't exist on the internet anymore. I remember there were actually Orkut groups devoted to making fun of one person! And somehow no one cared to do anything about it, because somehow it felt like the Internet wasn't real life.
Coming from that milieu, how do you feel about the internet of today?
Interesting, though I may not agree that there was a maturity that made people realize that it was not real life. It was too early for people to be that mature, I’d say! I think that perhaps things were not too bad because the internet was still not too ubiquitous in those days.
It had a limited window in our life back then, while currently it's almost life.
Back in the day, you could actually have your own website and blog, and people would link to them from their blog. And you could find other people's blogs through your friends’ blogs.I miss that kind of open architecture.
Now there's just a few websites monopolizing discourse. How do you feel about that?
Yes, that's what I've kinda touched upon in my book too. The monopoly on discourse is, in a way, making a backdoor entry. But it's not due to blogs dying down, but due to big tech surrendering.
Blogs died down as a matter of behavioral change, just like magazines and newspapers dying (at least in the US markets. India is still safe). We just stopped reading and visiting them.
Yes. It feels like it all contributes to making the internet a place with less resilience, and less variety.
Yeah, exactly how mainstream media was. Though, even before the big tech surrendered, so to speak, it felt like you just went to a few websites or apps. Not like earlier when we would go to so many more websites or blogs. Big tech’s media offerings, especially the social media platforms, became almost the final destination for most people on the internet, and from there the slide began.
Yes, that's a great point. The Internet went mainstream, so consolidation happened.
Yes, with the internet becoming mainstream and almost a necessity like electricity, it was bound to happen.
Talking of mainstream, I noticed in your book you said that nationalist discourse on the internet started around 2009.
But I remember I used to follow some pretty nationalist blogs much earlier than that, like 2004 or so. And funnily enough, those bloggers are now quite mainstream! I'm sure you're familiar with them now - there was Sandeep Balakrishna's blog, and then there was this blog called Offstumped, which I realized was written by Shashi Shekhar Vempati, who is now the head of Prasar Bharti!!
They were much much more unfiltered than they are today, and given Sandeep Balakrishna's current avatar, that is saying something.
I'm not too sure the 'National Interest' blog was there since 2004. But even if they were, at least for a person like me - someone basically not aware of Hindutva nuances - they were not go-to places.
Right. They were totally not mainstream. They were a very niche corner that people like me who were very into current affairs read, along with several others.
I remember those blogs were the first time I heard something like "Gandhi was not the main cause of Indian freedom, Clement Attlee himself said it was Bose who was responsible for them leaving India"
I thought, like your average person, that they were crazy.
True
Now that is mainstream thought, still a little offbeat, but I read it in a recent popular book about Indian history. We've come such a long way!
When you see changes like that happen from 2009 to 2019, how does that make you feel?
Mixed feelings, and that in a way is captured in my book. But largely it makes me feel good, because despite the recent attempts at getting the control and monopoly back, the discourse is no longer as lopsided as it was earlier.
And at least the awareness is there in certain sections that how and why the discourse is lopsided.
Yes, it feels like you can't anymore put the genie back in the bottle, though I'm still paranoid.
One thing that kinda makes me unhappy is that while people can see the bias, they think both the 'right' and the 'left' are biased. That's one assumption that needs to be questioned and destroyed, and that can be destroyed using the vocabulary of social justice.
Yeah, the "sab mile hue hain ji '' (both sides are bad) type of discourse.
No. Different thing I’m saying. It has to be conveyed that terming the Dharmics (or ‘RW’ as they are inaccurately termed) ‘biased’ is like terming the black guy 'racist' because he says Black Lives Matter and doesn’t appear to care about White lives. Essentially, the Dharmic side is only trying to achieve balance in the narrative. He surely is shouting, and thus might appear brash and biased, but he is just trying to be heard. Because traditionally, he has been silenced and never allowed to speak.
Excellent point.
So just like people don’t consider a person of color insisting on segregated affinity groups a racist, a Dharmic guy focusing too much on Dharmic discourse is not 'biased' or 'bigoted'.
Though, like you mentioned in another interview, things like Afro-Dalit studies are trying hard to get ahead of that.
Precisely. Perhaps they too realize that this parallel exists, and thus to deny that parallel, they are working on that ‘Afro-Dalit’ discourse, But that shouldn't stop us from highlighting this parallel.
Absolutely. And I've seen that happen to great effect in the Audrey Truschke issue now, at Rutgers university.
Several student groups came together to demand action on her insensitive discourse and social media presence.
Yes, That has me being hopeful. We should try to get some other groups representing People of Color to talk about Dharmic causes.
You know who is actually ahead on this? The RSS in the US. They actually go to several neighborhoods, conduct Diwali celebrations, make these kinds of on-ground changes with other groups on an individual basis. The funny thing is, ten years ago, I used to mock them because they would just go on about celebrating festivals and family values. The effort they would put in to make meals from scratch for these events was grating.
Interesting.
But now I have a deeper respect for them and their focus on slow change away from the media spotlight.
On that note, how do you feel that it took an Ashoka University professor to write an authoritative book on the RSS?
(I'm talking about Vinay Sitapati's book Jugalbandi)
I just find it funny you're the Sanghi who never went to the Shakha, while he is the tankie who went a lot to Shakha.(Note: I have no idea about Mr. Sitapati’s political opinions and this is more for comic effect).
Haha.. I don't really know much about the author or the book though obviously I have heard about both, and it's getting good reviews too I guess, but it’s true that more scholarship should have been "in house" so far as Sangh is concerned.
Sangh does come up with decent written material actually, but most of it is meant for internal consumption I’m guessing (something I've referred to in my book too). They haven't focused much on external communication, or let's say, marketing.
On a different note, going to your MBA and such, you tried your hand at a lot of entrepreneurial things, before you did Faking News fulltime. Did I get that right?
Yes
The thing that stuck out the most for me is you worked very hard on this, when your batchmates were all getting seven figure salaries. I know in your book you talk about a friend who helped you with your perspective on this, but it must have been hard seeing everyone else have their life take off, when you were grinding away on FN. What kept you going? What kept away that FOMO?
Yes, it wasn't easy, and on occasions the idea did strike that I'm not making as much money as my batchmates, especially in the early months of Faking News.
But three things helped
1. I had made a bit of money already through the sale of the first venture - the Cricket Stock Exchange website. It wasn't a lot of money, but good enough to give confidence that entrepreneurship can also pay.
2. My family never pressured me or asked me what I was earning and why I was doing what I was doing.
3. IIM Ahmedabad had introduced a rule that people who opt for entrepreneurship, can come back to the campus in the next 2 years and take part in the placement process if they want.
#3 there sounds so great.
Yes, I think it still is there, and very few actually might be coming back, but it's a huge moral support
I suppose that assuages how people might feel like they are "wasting" their MBAs.
Yes, kind of.
You've succeeded with not one but two creative/media companies. That's like finding a unicorn as well as the tooth fairy.
Haha.
What are some lessons you've learned in this journey?
I'm assuming you mean only the entrepreneurship journey
Also in terms of creativity, dealing with the Indian public, competition.
Some of the things I've learned is
1. Business plan is not Excel or PPT, but Endeavor and Passion. What you put on paper could just go for a toss once you are in the field.
2. Don't try to hedge your risks too much and don't be afraid of failure, especially early in your life and career. You can always bounce back. It's far more difficult to take failures in later life than in early life.
3. Don't run after a chimera of ‘full independence’ or absolute free will. While entrepreneurship is all about freedom, there will always be some pressure points or the other - your new investors, your consumers, your partners, etc.
With #2, you mean like fail early, fail often?
Basically the ability to bounce back; your ability to take failures in your stride as a 22-year-old is way different when compared to a 44-year-old. If you can't take failures early in life, you're wasting time trying to be an entrepreneur.
Many people think that they should first earn and become 'secure' before taking risks. Hardly works.
Add me to that list of many people
🙂 Haha. There is no hard and fast rule as such, I must add, but what I said works in most cases.
As far as creativity is concerned, you only get better at it with time, unless you start self-censoring or over-selling yourself. And as far as the Indian public is concerned, especially in creativity and digital space, they can be as fickle as anyone can get.
What do you mean by fickle? Does that mean you've to be more nimble as a creative?
Essentially, "You are only as good as yesterday".
In the challenges you've experienced as a CEO, I remember one of them was that a rival website owner doxxed your family. That is a very messed up thing to happen to anyone.
How did you get beyond that hump?
It wasn't much of a bother actually. Unlike them, we on the ‘right’ side of the ideological divide get far more abuse and threats but we don't play victim, so after a time, we become immune and numb to it. Plus I got so many messages of support and empathy too. Those were far more important than tweets of a criminal-turned-fact-checker.
Yes, when I mentioned to my friends that I would be talking to you, quite a few wanted to know how you dealt with this. There's a lot of compassion for you about that and other such experiences
Sure, also, I had written a blog and if you remember, I used that opportunity to actually share my feelings as a father. So I turned an ugly moment into a beautiful one - I have hardly documented my personal life (the book is not exactly documentation of my personal life) so it helped.
You're the son of an English professor. What's your relationship been with English?
The reason I ask is because your writing is so clear, crisp, precise, very unfettered by the kind of things the Rushdies and Roys had convinced us were how books were meant to be written in English.
And how do you feel more and more Indians who are going online these days are relating with English, which is a language they basically learn so they can get jobs?
Haha.. it's sweet and sour.. as a Bihari, I was never confident of speaking English and I am still not confident about my ways. But with written English, many gave me this feedback pretty early, during Faking News days, or even earlier, that I have a writing style that doesn’t appear affected or trying too hard to impress. Many said I should stick to my style and write more often. And that's where English kind of became the default language for written communication, and slowly for every kind of communication, once MBA and other things happened.
I'd also blame our education system, which teaches our own languages in a rather dry and dull way.
Yeah I studied Hindi in CBSE in the south, and when I try to speak in Hindi, people shush me because apparently I make native speakers forget their language.
I'd have actually loved to be a natural writer in the Hindi language, whose beauty I realized only later. It really feels awkward and a little sad that many times I fumble for words in Hindi and end up using English words or phrases
The education system doesn't do much justice to Hindi at all.
Yes, and then add to that "Hindi imposition" thing!
I was going to bring that up! As a Hindi speaker, what's your opinion on Hindi imposition?
Someone had written this about Urdu - sab mere hain, mera yahaan koi nahi, main bhi is mulq mein Urdu ki tarah rahta hoon - which loosely translates to "I associate myself with everyone, but no one associates themselves with me. I feel like Urdu in this country" - I think this is more true about Hindi than Urdu.
Haha. That’s on point. As a Bangalorean, I feel like there ought to be Kannada imposition in other states, at least in school as a third language, because everyone comes to Bangalore at some point to work anyway
What you're saying could have been achieved via the three language rule of CBSE, but in the Hindi heartland, that rule has been reduced to a joke with the third language often being Urdu, Arabic, Sanskrit or even foreign languages.
I think that's a problem with schools more than anything, because they need teachers ready to teach, and students willing to learn.
I remember students in my school tried to learn French, and the whole rigmarole of finding a teacher and then attending those classes was such a nightmare.
yes, Ideally they should have divided Hindi areas into geographical units and allocated some non-Hindi language as a third language for all schools falling in that area
Let students not be afraid of failing, but at least they should learn the basics.
An exam system doesn't give you that luxury
yes, in modern times it would have been even better.. students would have loved to watch web series or movies in non-Hindi languages as part of their curriculum.
That's something I keep saying language teachers should do! Just immerse yourself in the movies and songs of whatever language you're learning. But my Hindi teachers were all like "Bollywood Hindi is bad, don't learn Hindi from there. Watch Doordarshan instead." Well, that went well.
Haha.
You're a writer. Tell us about your process!
Well, I write when I feel the need to communicate, and that writing could be anything - even a tweet, but I must feel a need or a trigger.
Although one can turn it into a routine too, like there was a phase during Faking News when I knew I must write daily and not just keep waiting for THAT moment. But still, that trigger has to be there.
You need some inspiration.
Yes, once the trigger is there, or inspiration, all you need is discipline to write it. The longer the form, the bigger the discipline needed.
How did you go from writing short pieces to a whole book? How did you cultivate that discipline?
It does need a lot of discipline.I tried various things - Must wake up early in the morning and sit in my chair and just write. Stuff like that. You need to push yourself.
What finally worked?
Mostly writing in the morning. There were days when I wrote till late night too after starting late in the evening, but mornings were better.
What’s the worst part of writing a book?
The fact that you somehow know that an article or tweet or even a meme will have far more reach, while the book is going to have a much limited reach. In the digital era, you need to beat this (kinda flawed) logic and argument about the futility of writing a book. Plus the fact that you have to go through some catharsis as almost every book has something personal, even if you're writing fiction.
What were some skills or insights you developed when you finished writing this book?
Discipline is definitely a skill or even a habit I developed. Plus the re-discovery of realizing how important it is to research well what you say or argue.
What do you think is the biggest obstacle lots of people have to writing what they want to write?
I think the fear of negative feedback could be one of the biggest obstacles.
And finally, what will your next book be about?
I have not yet decided! But surely there will be another book!
And I'm really looking forward to whatever you'll write next, given this one was so gripping. I finished it in three or four hours flat.
This has been an absolute pleasure. I really enjoyed our conversation and hearing your takes on all the things I wondered about your opinions on. Your interviews seem to focus heavily on politics, but just as I suspected, it’s so much more fresh and interesting to hear your takes and insights on everything else!
Thank you!
